Curse

Horseman Of War · Aug 11, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

This is a post in response/regard to all the posts ive been reading about balancing the elementalists:

people are saying remove exhaustion, lower casting times, etc.

thats not what is gimping the class.

Energy Storage is Gimping the Ele's->

Think about it- Why would you EVER want 80 points of magic...? Once you use it up- you just have a bigger empty space for the rest of the battle.

What about if Energy Storage actually decreased Spell Recharge Times and added to Energy regen at increased levels?

Having 80 magic points is retarded... you cast your spells and you are then in the 10-20 point range jus like everyone else!!!

Keep Exhaustion! Kill Energy Storage!!! Implement a ( i dunno..) 4% reduction in recharge time on spells and enchantments for each point... and for every 5 or 6 points you gain 1 pip of energy regen...

This would allow primary elementalists to shake off exhaustion better than a me/e or n/e etc... which they SHOULD be able to...

Also, that way their supposed 'larger energy pool' is actually a fact rather than an illusion that fades as soon as you cast some spells.

Anyone who disagrees please tell me why Im really interested in what people think of this alternative to changing half of every skill for the profession...

I think this is a way to change the eles without going crazy trying to change each and every little skill... elementalists should be better at energy management... not worse... and I think that is the main problem.

So argue this theory:

Energy Storage: each point reduces recharge times of spells by 3%. every 5 points gives you increased energy regen of +1 (argueably every 4 or 8 points seeing as the common max for atts is 16- i like 5 tho its an even number to work with)

this way- you have 10 energy storage- spells recharge 1/3 quicker and you get 6 pips of energy instead of 4.

Please bash this and support this as you see fit- just something i thought of real quick.... it is inconsequential to me

BahamutKaiser · Aug 12, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Energy Storage has one obvious strength, the ability to overcome Exhaustion. With high end pools of energy a player can suffer exhaustion and still have energy to cast, never needing that ending 10 or 20 energy to regain. That is why Elementist have Exhaustion.

Powerful Elementist skills have Exhaustion so they can cost more of your energy, yet still cost no more than 25 energy. This allows any other class to cast it with their lesser energy pools, but with their lesser energy pools Exhaustion is punishing.

I don't think energy storage should be changed to reduce recast time and add energy regeneration, that totaly rewrites the identity behind elementist. Reduced recast time and better energy management skills would be an improvement, but I don't think that is something the primary should handle.

There are many elementist energy management skills which allow elementist to maintain proper energy will casting his spells, I think they should be a tad better, but it isn't missing. Probably the most helpful idea you have here is something that reduces the recast times for spells, and glyph of renewal isn't cutting it. They could improve attunements and a reduced recast time for spells of that attribute. If that isn't acceptable, they could make a new Elementist skill which reduces recast times for certain attributes, or an elite energy management + recast reduction skill for each element.

I have suggested in the past that there be some sort of passive skill which can be included in an elementists skill slot for permenant energy regeneration of up to 2 or 3 points. And with passive skills like this they could make it a requirement for new skills, or allow them to increase the lasting effect of DoT skills.

I believe Energy Storage should reduce the effect of exhaustion as well, that is the purpose of the added energy. For normal energy management, Expertise is far better, since Energy Storage is ment to overcome the effects of Exhaustion, I believe it should have a dual dampenning effect. And adding reduced exhaustion effect to energy storage is a benifit which will only improve the use of a few Exhaustion skills, unlike some overall boost which will help elementist with other classes skills, or even all of his own.

I will also mention that most all classes have armor options with added energy, all except Elementist. Elementist doesn't have armor with additional energy, nor does he need it. It would be great if they made a set of armor which had nothing but base stats and an additional + 1 energy regeneration, I suggest the body piece be the part which retains this boost, and other pieces of this set can have normal +energy. Admittedly, Elementist has the lowest armor rating and capabilities in the game, it makes perfect sense that they be given the most energy regeneration, also because it is the only class with hieghtened energy pools and excessively expensive skills.

The other alternatives would be to make Elementist specific runes for either increased energy regeneration of +1, or exhaustion reduction of 1-3, giving Elementist an advantage with his specialty, simular to Warriors specialty of reduced physical damage from absorbtion runes. It is a very class specific difficulty and it needs a class specific remedy.

Kaida the Heartless · Aug 12, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

All those who complain about the elementalist fail to realize what kind of damage re-adjusting the elementalist would do to the game's balance.

By increasing the elementalist's energy regeneration and shortening the casting/recharge times of their skills, you are turning them into damage spamming machines. Yes, I know, that is exactly what you want, right? Spamming 150 damage skills whilst at the same time, ignoring any energy management needs? That is hardly balanced.

The elementalist is set up, at the current moment, to spike skills off quickly, then have a period of downtime. During this downtime, the elementalist's skills are supposed to be recharging so that you CANNOT use them again and further deplete your energy pool.

The high energy pool is a counter for the exhaustion used to balance some skills. It was made this way for a purpose. If you have a low energy pool, exhaustion is going to kill you and make many skills useless. To make the skills useful again, exhaustion will be dropped and the damage will be lowered or the cast/recharge will be longer. It's all balanced.

Instead of making more threads to complain about the elementalist (who has been fine up to this point), consider the following:

1. Stop spamming exhaustion skills. One in your bar is fine, two is pushing it, three is unheard of. Limit your exhaustion skills.

2. If you find your energy pool constantly low, stop spamming skills and time them tactically to your advantage. You may also consider Elemental Attunement to make your energy pool almost unlimited. This will remove your Elite slot but you wont have to really worry about energy anymore.

Honestly, I'm getting tired of the complaints. Stop blaming the game for a bad character setup when, in actuallity, many times it is the player who is breaking the character, not the balance.

Trylo · Aug 12, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

umm... ok lets see... all those points HAVE been made at least 5 times before this, please find a related thread and post there, there are already more than 2 in some forums...

Adding 1 pip will not work, just way to many balancing issues, monk maintaining enchantments is just one.

i dont see how recharging will help. i truely dont.

adding more damage per attack > recharge. anytime. that will fix the need to spam spells and waste energy, thus helping the problem. my idea add 4/5% damage to all your elemental spells with each point of energy storage.

@Kaida
Its not the energy management, but the pitiful damage an elementalist does compared to... everything for the proportions of the energy spent. there have been MANY fix the problem threads for eles, not just up until 'this point'.

please post your ideas on another thread.

Rent · Aug 12, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

All those who complain about the elementalist fail to realize what kind of damage re-adjusting the elementalist would do to the game's balance.

By increasing the elementalist's energy regeneration and shortening the casting/recharge times of their skills, you are turning them into damage spamming machines. Yes, I know, that is exactly what you want, right? Spamming 150 damage skills whilst at the same time, ignoring any energy management needs? That is hardly balanced.

The elementalist is set up, at the current moment, to spike skills off quickly, then have a period of downtime. During this downtime, the elementalist's skills are supposed to be recharging so that you CANNOT use them again and further deplete your energy pool.

The high energy pool is a counter for the exhaustion used to balance some skills. It was made this way for a purpose. If you have a low energy pool, exhaustion is going to kill you and make many skills useless. To make the skills useful again, exhaustion will be dropped and the damage will be lowered or the cast/recharge will be longer. It's all balanced.

Instead of making more threads to complain about the elementalist (who has been fine up to this point), consider the following:

1. Stop spamming exhaustion skills. One in your bar is fine, two is pushing it, three is unheard of. Limit your exhaustion skills.

2. If you find your energy pool constantly low, stop spamming skills and time them tactically to your advantage. You may also consider Elemental Attunement to make your energy pool almost unlimited. This will remove your Elite slot but you wont have to really worry about energy anymore.

Honestly, I'm getting tired of the complaints. Stop blaming the game for a bad character setup when, in actuallity, many times it is the player who is breaking the character, not the balance.

You should probably learn the game you're talking about. Elementalists, in regards to doing damage over a larger scale of time, pale in comparison to Warriors; so much so that there's simply little to no reason to have a Fire ele on your team.

BahamutKaiser · Aug 12, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Kaida has a severly narrow perspective of elementist. First of all, you can get your energy pool well into 100 energy with some good items and high energy storage, in which case 5 and 6 dips of exhaustion are managable, as well as the use of Glyph of Energy to break down one good exhaustion skill, or often 2 if they have long recasts.

Elementist already have the ability to spam certain spells, their highest spike damage spells in Lightning can deal plenty of damage, with energy management to cover their near endless barage. Other elements do less damage with either AoE or additional effects in return, these skills should not be unspamable because they deal damage to a group, on a group only if your talented enough or the enemy is dumb enough to stay in tight groups, AoE damage should not be limited further in recast.

It is rather obvious that we disagree with the current elementist balance, the topic brung up over and over, saying that alterations would change the game balances is like saying bread is made out of wheat, duh. I think that many, not all, elementist capabilities are deficient and unbalanced compared to other classes output. There is always room for improvement, whether it is balanced or not, and we are suggesting an improvement to something we believe is gimped. If you disagree I will glady debate that with you, notice the title says debate, but making a completely obvious statement isn't a defense for elementist current state.

Note, Elementist already can put out several hundreds of points of damage constantly with lightning magic and dual attunements, 80% reduction of 15 energy (Lightning Orb) is 3 energy, 1-3 energy spells out of a 80+ energy pool is pretty much constant assault. It is the many other skills which need to be addressed, the DoT spells in fire have retarded recast, the AoE spells either cost too much in energy or recast to compete in damage with Lightning spam or other AoE options, Earth spells like Earthquake take to long to be used properly with a good Aftershock. And the cost of exhaustion on skills like obsidian flame are just a bit high compared to Blood Spikes which deal damage and return health wile ignoring armor as a standard.

The cost of Elementist spells in Exhaustion and recast on many skills, not all, are a bit weak compared to simular abilities and attacks from other classes. Sure Elementist can deal as much damage as a Warrior if he spams Lightning, but a Warrior deals that much damage and survives massive amounts of damage as well, elementist drop like flies. When you match up Fire and Earth efficiency to other classes it is a bit hard to make comparisons, but the general conclusion is that they are not good enough, DoT and AoE damage are extremely situational, and that situation should play to their advantage, not to the assumed effectiveness of the spell.

Elementist are not universally broken, but there are certain things which can surely be improved, if you automaticly assume that there isn't, then your already wrong, because there is always something to improve.

I pretty much mentioned all of your observations already and you repeated them in a rant of narrow perspective, so save us your lack of insight, I'm sure there is a grave somewhere that your should be protesting at right now, the rest of us would like to have a realistic debate on the state of elementist and how it could be improved.

As for Trylos explaination, I don't see how 1 energy regen breaks anything, because it would give elementist an advantage over monk with one of his skills? I think the ability to use a few of other classes skills with more proficiency is a norm. Touch Ranger, Mesmer Lightning Spam, Barrage Assassin. Monk has an irrefutable advantage with Divine Favor which Elementist can not match, giving them +1 energy regen to match their high energy pool and high skill costs is rather nominal, they have the weakest armor class which means they can be cut down the easiest, in turn they should have some sort of useful energy boosting armor comparable to their situation, a balanced advantage IMO, different obviously, but I doubt it is broken. You will have to point out more significant examples to change my mind, 1 extra maintainable enchantment doesn't overpower monks primary based energy maintenance mangement skill. Exhaustion reducing runes would be better, but I don't see how +1 energy regen breaks elementist.

I think Elementist is well with his own energy mangement skills, I just think they need some improvement, a normal exhaustion remedy glyph would go a long way, and more reliability among Elementist energy management skills would make a big difference. I still think the 1 second cast time on glyphs is broken, you spend an entirely extra skill slot just to boost the effectiveness of one skill at a time, and it cost extra time to prep.

I have other more significant grievances about Elementist, but I am staying up too late, Night.

Undivine · Aug 12, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I'm inclined to agree with Trylo. I was thinking of merging this thread with an existing one, but then, it doesn't really add to the discussion of improving eles. Rather than making a thread to reply to other threads, why didn't you post in those threads?

This one is a good one. It's not flamey, has good suggestions, and I looked really cool in that thread.

In fact, the topic is still relevant, since the ele hasn't been changed much since that thread's creation, so if you want to say something about improving the ele, give it a wee bump and say something.

But this thread is going to be closed. It has some of the hallmarks of the really bad, flamey thread that was first created on this subject. *Shudders* It also doesn't differ at all from the other threads that exist on this topic.